Part 3: Return of the Jedi (other less prophetic dude)
I am back to answer the questions Timothy proposed to me earlier in the week.
"Do you proclaim Jesus is Lord and came in the flesh?" (Tim)
Yes. Why would I deny that Jesus came since I think the writer's express that quite well. As for 'Lord' (which is a British Term for 'Master') - I would say 'yes' - in that - I follow and respect the teachings of Jesus.
"Could you also tell me how much you love Him?" (Tim)
Quite a bit, so much so, I hold those teachings of Jesus as council for the life I lead. But I have found the love of God is found in the friendships I have developed and within the teachings being lived.
"And why your myspace page in no way reflects any sign of your faith in Christ?" (Tim)
Wait, my background for that page is a dude with angel wings on his back in some kind of contemplative state (how is that not a template of some Christian symbolism?). Sorry it didn't meet the Christian standard set forth - I will try to obey better next time.
"I do not hear you shouting from the roof tops the Good News of forgiveness in Christ." (Tim)
Have you ever read my blogs on Losing my Religion or MySpace? They are piled with loads full of Christian teachings (and elaborations) and the experiences I have had with following them. I also live my life according to those values - how is that not a witness - and at that - out in the wide open? No rooftop mind you but not in the darkness either.
"As you have study my posts and comments, I have read all your comments and I do not see the Spirit in your words, nor the joy of life lived for Christ." (Tim)
Why? Because I have questions and concerns? The Spirit does not allow questions or something? And how do you figure the Spirit is not within me - exactly? As for the joy thing, well you don't know me all that well anyways so making that judgement means very little. I am quite a happy person and thankful for all I have - and give of it quite liberally - but then again these are typed words - and not video.
"Jason I urge you to get right with God in Christ. Time is very short." (Tim)
Get right? Interesting. How do you figure I am 'off' with Christ? What makes you think that exactly? I mean I could listen to this bit of advice but then I am not sure exactly what this even means.
"Are you yet resisting Him and stifling His Spirit and His free gift?" (Tim)
No I am questioning you and your idea what you write is equal to scripture - so in some sense I am resisting that. But I do not reject the teachings and life of Jesus as false...yet am I still resisting God?
(Tim) "What the Lord has given me to write, stays written, and what the Lord has spoken, STANDS."
Therefore any discomfort you have is not with me and should not be addressed to me. Only sincere questions of faith will I answer from now on.
The Lord has spoken, yes SPOKEN, to me several times saying, "It is not with you, Timothy, that these contend and will not obey. It is my Word which they cannot bear to hear and will not obey; neither can they discern the Truth as I have given it to them, for the doctrines and traditions of men they hold in high regard and will not put Me first neither will they obey My commandments. Rather they make every effort to search out ways to subvert My word spoken through My prophets and do take even every way given them, of the world and man, so they may go round about. And so, it is continually fulfilled as in all times past: These children of disobedience will not hear, nor can they, for they do continually go about saying, 'speak to us lies and pleasant things and cast these cords from us. Speak no more in the name of the Lord, we will no listen.' And again saying they know My Words and My commandments, BUT THEY WILL NOT DO THEM! So take not any complaint to yourself and speak only to those with sincere questions of faith and remove yourself from the slander of these smoking fire brands, their argument is with the Lord...you are but the messenger. It is now up to them to receive it."says the Lord.
This took a colorful twist - what do you think? God is angry or God is love? God is for our questions and what about a God that seems to draw dividing lines upon human beings? How would you feel if God said this to you for asking questions and questioning Tim about his prophetic office?
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25 comments:
God is love -- it's one of His defining characteristics. I also don't think that He'd be angry or upset with doubt. After all, one is supposed to love God with all of one's mind, and God also gave us the power of a sound mind.
I find it interesting that the speaker doesn't see the Spirit in the words, or the joy of life in Christ. The speaker seems to be assuming that he has an objective viewpoint. One person's expression of joy is not the same as the other.
http://www.willamette.edu/~ttalbott/false.html
(thought you should read this)
ybmt
"And why your myspace page in no way reflects any sign of your faith in Christ?" (Tim)
I was disappointed to read him saying this. Christ often communicated indirectly ... and it is worth mentioning that Christ rebuked the religious leaders because they asked for a sign.
I totally agree with Tim, though, about the, 'Speaking lies and pleasant things' part. The social gospel of our day is always making politically correct statements designed to get the largest majority to agree. Christ, on the other hand, has called us to be set apart.
"God is angry or God is love?"
Although the Bible says God is slow to anger, He has been angry many times in both the Old Testament and the New Testament. He isn't afraid to lay down the punishment either. Jesus commanded the angry not to sin -he never called anger sin.
Burning Bush,
**Jesus commanded the angry not to sin -he never called anger sin. ** Wouldn't that depend on the anger, though? There is reference in the Sermon on the Mount of 'anger without cause' or calling someone a 'fool.' Anger, in a way, is a sin, because it can lead someone to mentally dismissing another person, or treating that person as less than human.
"and it is worth mentioning that Christ rebuked the religious leaders because they asked for a sign." (BB)
I am not asking for a sign or nothing like that from anyone - I am merely raising questions about the validity of this prophet (and mainly about his texts being equal to the biblical ones we read daily and base our faith upon).
"He isn't afraid to lay down the punishment either." (BB)
I read the gospel's and I do not see this Jesus that pre-eminently in there (this punishment person). I see a Jesus that loved everyone. At the heart of this question is one's view about the cross situation. Did Jesus go to the cross because of the anger of God towards 'humans' or for the love of God towards those same 'humans'? If it is anger, then we serve a angry God which demanda our perfection (I can dig that). If it was for his love of us then we serve a God that loves and did the utmost for us (and I can dig that). But which is it that comes through in the teachings?
I really love YBMT (Bruced's) and his response - the website he gave - I would encourage everyone to take a gander at that. Thanks Bruced.
Heather I think God is love - this was John's foremost idea of Jesus and God - I take his words as meaning something also.
As for the question that isn't being answered - what is your opinion of Timothy - is he a prophet? I know this is a judgement call but he is calling 'himself' - I am curious to what you all think - from reading his site or just the comments so far?
Timothy's attitude to your reasonable questioning is not very reasonable. One of God's most evidential attributes is His patience. I don't see it here.
Another thing, God is love, yes, but IMO God is not fustian (intentionally haughty in use of words) nor is He verbose (using far too many words to say something).
There is no reason to accept Tim's revelations as Scripture. I don't think that is insulting to him. I feel that God has revealed many things to me, specifically with regard to a rather unusual novel that I'm writing that has come to me with powerful, and sometimes frighteningly real, visions. But, is that Scripture or is this novel something God is calling me to write? Most likely the latter.
Pastor Rick Joyner wrote a book based on his own visions called "The Final Conquest". It's a great read and opens our eyes about many truths that are overlooked even though they are right under our noses. Great book about the coming spiritual battle. Is it Scripture? No.
Tim's works might be biblically grounded but the way he is presenting them is not very biblical. He is undermining his own writing.
I agree with Mr. jim's comments above as well. I've decided to stop posting comments to Timothy's 'prophetic musings' because all it's doing is stirring up more confusion and 'condemnation' from Tim.
societyvs, you just keep up the questions and continue to seek God's truth in all this...the Lord will reveal (or expose) it soon enough. :)
Ambree C. :)
I don't want to take sides in this for obvious reasons but I would like to comment on what writings are scripture and how we each arrive at our conclusion regarding what are inspired writings sent to us from God and what are mere commentary by believers.
There are many books that some consider to be scripture that were left out of the cannonized text. Personally, I have read them and agree that they should not be included as holy scripture. Most my reasoning that led me to my conclusion is that there are things written in them that don't line up with the text and sound more like Bible commentary, somewhat like the things that I write. They may be inspired as I know that God inspires me to write much of what I write but I wouldn't call my writings scripture simply because the things I write, I believe, speak to people (I hope) in our specific time frame and would not be useful in a few thousand years as the scriptures are nearly timeless and have spoken and continue to speak over the centuries. I also think that my personality is in my writing, I write in my voice, while scripture speaks to me as the voice of God and not of the voice of the man who penned those words.
I enjoy Timothy's writing after I got past what he claims of himself and other predjudices of my own. I am not ready to add what he writes to my Bible but neither will I question what he says God has called him to do. No more than I question Society's wanting to help the poor even though that is a different approach than mine to preaching the gospel. I take from Timothy's words what is useful and I question those statements that don't line up with my current system of belief but I don't know him well enough yet to really make a judgement as to the validity as to being a prophet. My denomination equates the called pastor/preacher as prophet so I may have less trouble with the term than others from other denominations. Someone who is called as a prophet and teaches about God and warns of judgment is not that unusual to me. Timothy is different in the fact that he says that he is called to teach and preach first to gather as many to Christ as possible before the end of the age and then to teach and preach during the Great Tribulation. This is something that I have to leave between Timothy and God. It is God who knows Timothy's heart while the rest of us can only surmise and it is God that will either bless his ginuineness or set limits upon any false work he may be doing. All I can do is read his words and trust the Lord as I do when I listen to any man teach or preach. I measure the words and works according to Jesus and throw away whatever doesn't measure up but I leave the judgement to God. As far as admonitions go, if they don't fit, I don't take them in whether directed personally toward me or not.
I too believe that God is Love and any anger that He has is righteous anger toward all that is in opposition to Love Who is God. The Bible says to 'be angry and sin not'. Anger is not sin but wrong action poured forth from that anger is sin. God does not sin and whatever action pours forth from His righteous anger is also of Divine Love.
I think of all of you as my christian brothers and sisters and I hope and pray that all of this controversy will in the end unify and not divide as I trust that God is working both the evil and the good to our ultimate good.
Have a Jesusful day, all!
Pam
Jay, I don't care what anybody might say. I think you are one cool and sincere dude! Keep questioning!!!!!
SocietyVS,
I was saying Tim should not have been asking you for a sign, not that you were asking for a sign. I was disappointed by his request, not you.
I am puzzled as to why Tim's boldness is being examined so critically here when Bruced and his website are recommended, if not promoted. Tim isn't telling us everyone is going to heaven, or which NT passages we can or cannot apply to our lives today, or wholesale dismissing someone after labeling them "angry".
YMBT is a lot more dangerous than anything I've heard Tim say. I do admit, however, I may have misunderstood Bruce, so please someone correct me if I am mistaken.
Society,
**As for the question that isn't being answered - what is your opinion of Timothy - is he a prophet? ** Based on the questions he's asking you, I would say no. I haven't actually gone to his website or anything. I say this because much of his questions towards you, at least in this section, seem fear-based. He urges you to get right with God and making sure you have the right beliefs. He has a very clear idea of what the 'joy of life' for Christ is. Except one person's joy is not another's.
Heather,
Jesus says in Matthew 10: "Fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Do you believe Jesus is making an appeal to fear? Do you believe Jesus was sent by God?
"I am puzzled as to why Tim's boldness is being examined so critically here when Bruced and his website are recommended, if not promoted" (BB)
I am examining Tim's claim's - which happen to be from God - I think that constitutes a lot more seriousness than what Bruced is raising (he makes no claims of this nature).
But I agree with you BB, all things need to be examined in depth and thought through - from Bruced, to Tim's, to anything any of us write about our faith. I have very little problem with Bruced's idea about God's grace and love towards humantity. I do have problems with the tones Timothy gives to God - which again goe back to one's view about Jesus' sacrifice and to one's experiences with giving love (or giving judgment) to others. I have seen that love seems to be the cornerstone of this faith - and we have no call to judge another.
"Tim isn't telling us everyone is going to heaven, or which NT passages we can or cannot apply to our lives today, or wholesale dismissing someone after labeling them "angry"." (BB)
Your questions about Bruced and his website/views - will have to be taken up with him and I know I cannot answer correctly on his behalf. Just so we both know, I am not a universalist or nothing - but their view of humanity is quite refreshing (and I find it 'good').
BB as for the Matthew 10 quote - if Jesus appeals to 'fear' in that passage - is it the overriding theme of his sayings? It seems to me Jesus' greatest appeals to humanity were about love and equality - ie: love God and love your neighor (as yourself). I think there is a teaching somewhere about 'perfect love casts out all fear'. If we 'fear' God - what good can this bring forth? If we 'love' God, what fruit will this bring forth? I think love is greater than fear - we should aspire for the greater good.
Burning Bush,
**Do you believe Jesus is making an appeal to fear? Do you believe Jesus was sent by God? **
Overall, no, because Matthew 10 then goes on to say that people should have no fear, as God cares for them more than He cares for sparrows. The overreaching message of the Gospels was to have no fear. Plus, as Society says, it's near impossible to love someone if there's an element of fear involved (this is fear as in 'terror,' not fear as in 'awe.')
The interesting thing about the Matthew quote referenced is that it uses the word 'destroy.' So I'm wondering what exactly it is that gets destroyed, especially since the 'hell' there refers to GEhenna, which was a trash dump. Is it the person who actually gets destroyed, or just all the sin elements of the person? Because someone who thinks that a sinful act defines him/herself is going to fear that, as the person doesn't know who s/he is without that particular sin.
I do believe Jesus was sent by God, yes.
Hey societyvs, it's a good thing you posted your responses to Tim here, because your posts and mine have been wiped clean from Gracehead.com. Everything is 'Yea' and 'Amen' over there now--with no debate. Only Len is there taunting folks to come up with proof against the 'resident prophet'.
I'm so through with that subject...
"because your posts and mine have been wiped clean from Gracehead.com. Everything is 'Yea' and 'Amen' over there now--with no debate. Only Len is there taunting folks to come up with proof against the 'resident prophet'." (Ambree)
I just confronted Timothy on the issue and let him know that was offensive to do - it was tantamount to saying 'you don't matter'. I am writing a blog on this thing about Gracehead.com - they went from questions = confusion to questions = you don't matter anymore..which was better?
This all makes me very sad. I can't fix it but I'm not ready to head for my bunker yet. I really don't know who removed the posts. I'm trying to find out and waiting for Trent to reply. Can you give me a bit of time to find out? Things aren't always as they appear. I would ask Timothy but it is Trent's blog. Censoreship has never been Trent's style. You both matter a great deal to me.
Pam
Thanks for your understanding Pam. :) I'm just totally flabbergasted over all this. This was the *last* thing I would have expected to happen as the result of our talks. Either Trent or someone given permission by him did this, and this action was calculated and precise because for the exception of my initial post, *every other* post that questioned Timothy on that tithing thread and a few others were wiped out. At one point, the thread Heather started about false prophets was deleted temporarily, but I see it's back up today. Thank God for Google! I was able to save the cached pages of most of the discussions that happened for reference, if needed.
This is truly a sad affair, yet even our Lord can work good out of it, and I believe He will do it in His time. In the meantime, my thoughts and prayers are with the parties affected by everything.
Love you guys,
Ambree C. :)
Thanks for responding, Ambree. I have tears in my eyes right now and I have a feeling I know who is stirring the pot because I've seen simular things happen before. Please give us the benefit of the doubt. I'm trying to find out what has happened.
Even Trent and I got crossways last year and I removed all of my posts---not cool---there was a lot of other stuff going on with me at the time too, no excuse but probably more the reason why I did what I did that the problem between Trent and I. Online communication is great but it is also very fragile and it is so easy to get on the wrong track. The difference Trent and I had made our friendship stronger and I hope that is what happens here. True friends are able to have disputes then make up and go on. We who are in Christ are more than just friends, we are family. Let Love prevail!
Pam
Pam , I am not mad - I am disappointed more than anything with the conduct over this whole affair. I would say I am 'offended' but I am not - but the premise of being offended is right 'up this alley'.
I have no ill will towards you or anyone within Gracehead - and I think at the end of the day we can all still be pals. I don't want my way in this whole thing - that's not my intent whatsoever - I just want to have the right to be 'me' and be able to question things and learn. I actually thought the convo was going quite well until Ambree made me see the whole thing was pulled from the 'blog'. Pam you have been great over there at Gracehead and show your kindness by coming on my blog and trying to solve the problem (which I appreciate).
I have no questions about us all being friends when all is said and done - especially Len and Ambree (lol). Don't worry about these things Pam - they are but a small bump in the road and nowhere near being unforgiveable. I still hold out the best regards for everyone in Gracehead - and yes - now I think Timothy is a prophet (let me back in now - LOL).
I can't help but smile reading all this. God is using this self-proclaimed 'prophet' to bring us closer to Him, through searching His Word and through seeking His counsel...and not only that, we're also getting the chance to express our thoughts and just be real with each other as well (i.e. fellowship). These things are what I cherish most from this experience. :)
With the way my schedule is, I don't get a chance to fellowship with other believers much (I work nights and homeschool during the day) I only see my Christian brothers and sisters during Sunday service--and soon I won't be able to do that since my hubby will start working weekends and will have the car. :( But it's nice being able to connect to others with like minds who desire to let God's Love flow freely through them without abandon--even if it's over the WWW :). His grace is oh, so sufficient for us--and that's something I need to be reminded of every single day. Nice to know there are those around the 'net I can be inspired by to be reminded of that.
Take care y'all, and love ya lots!
Ambree C. :D :D :D
Okay, I won't worry. Sometimes we GraceHeads can be knuckle-heads and we are an independent and perhaps a somewhat eccentric lot but truly, we mean well. I don't think you were ever out, society no matter what you think Timothy is. Timothy is a man and all men are fallible and certainly being chosen by God to be used as a prophet is not a cushy job. I think we all do well to always remember that all of God's servants no matter what they are called are fallible and the amazing thing is that God still chooses to work through us. I once said online that I thought I had the gift of prophecy because it seems like I often am directed by God to tell folks what they don't want to hear. I got a pretty good verbal stoning out of that one...you know, we all take some things more seriously than we ought sometimes and need to put them back into context. None of us can thwart or promote the Will of God. He always gets His way and most often, that is despite us. Have a great end of the week all and a wonderful and restful Sabbath on whatever day, or how many days, are the Lord's Day for you. For me it has grown to take over the whole week and every day is the Sabbath a day to rest in the Lord.
Pam
Thanks Pam and Ambree - your both pretty awesome people!
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