Scenario #1
A person chooses to follow the faith as it is taught right now in the churches. They say a prayer to believe in Jesus, then they confess their sins/repent, and they are now allowed into community (and are officially saved). This the beginning and end of the whole journey. It literally starts in the same place it ends - and leaves many a person guessing if and when they might lose their 'salvation' through-out their faith experience. But that is it - you just 'believe and you are saved'.
Scenario #2
A person chooses to go into more depth on the actual teachings of Jesus. No simple prayer, looking into the depth's of what 'repentance' actually means, and what is the person's role in 'salvation' or 'community'? The journey has a beginning but no true ending - it's quite open and living it makes the whole thing acquire some depth. Life is the constant in this scenario - and how the teachings of the faith help to fill in a value system the person lacked insight into.
Now which of these 2 people would be widely accepted in most churches of the day?
Therein lies the core of the problem...you see the the idea the steps to this faith are easy as 1 (pray to be saved), 2 (repent), 3 (you are saved) is way too simplistic. Actually, in all honesty I cannot find a single place in the gospels where these 3 things are co-joined so easily in one teaching. What this actually does to someone's faith is cheapen it. There is no depth - no need for all the teachings Jesus does lay down - no need for anything - you are saved (end of story).
I have come to see this is a tragic farce. People need to start looking into the ideas and getting some real answers. What does it mean to 'believe'? What is the role of prayer? What is 'repentance' and what role does is serve? Are we to be involved in the idea of 'salvation'? These things need some depth applied to them or at best they become routine/memory...at worst they make hypocrites.
I cannot even define the amount of times I have met people that believe the system laid down by the faith (steps 1-3) that behave counter to most of Jesus' teachings. They say they know what repentance is/means (and how to do it) - but have no clue what being ethically 'responsible' includes. Churches teach us to merely believe in Jesus - yet they never explain what the term encompasses. Belief is a much stronger term than is being portrayed in the majority of church teachings and we need to start defining it better. Salvation, as a term, is only seen in Jesus' act upon the cross - not in his life (according to church teachings)...we serve no purpose whatsoever in that term. I think the term can be opened to greater meaning personally, in that Jesus lived a life of salvation (there is no way to deny that) - and if we are called to be under him (he's our rabbi) - just possibly we are called to that same road (same cross and all).
Recently (in a personal situation), I have come to see the reality of this paradigm and it works out exactly as I thought. Good Christian folks can do and say just about anything and still think they are following Jesus - while someone that is living the teachings is ostracized by them, disliked, and even 'prayed for'. In reality, the person being 'prayed for' could give life lessons to the whole batch of phonies on what true 'repentance' means and forgiveness. But that's reality folks. Hypocrisy runs wild when the system lacks any depth in it's teachings - if only they could actually 'believe' the very words they can quote so well. They have no clue what they are saying - cause what they are doing is way too simple and never gets any substance (it's rote and routine over and over) - and the hypocrite's best friend is always 'accusation'.
I am calling this one out - hypocrisy (which means 'acting') has to stop in our churches. It is actually helping to destroy communities and defend the religous status-quo (which is ludicrous) at the same time - and it's getting appalling. You have people that have as their only 2 commands to 'love' discriminating and hurting people in God's name. You have people that think repentance means to say a prayer and it's done but they never change their value system (nor take responsibility) for their actions. You have a whole system that tells you 'believe' something and don't question it (or your doubting like Thomas) and when someone does this they are shunned (there is no teaching about this). You have people that believe they are 'saved' but act as if they hold the keys to 'hell'.
I could go on and on - but you get the picture. So what do you truly believe? Or do you even believe what you are saying? Is salvation a moment in time or is something you can participate in? Do the things you believe the most have any real meaning? Who are you?
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
35 comments:
I don't disagree with a word you said. I think the gospel and its A, B, C, 1, 2, 3 approach is linked to this "salvation" view you wrote of.
It seems people think that the gospel begins and ends with "Jesus died for your sins and rose again...believe it."
After sharing Christ with a friend for years, mostly by life, but we also has plenty of great conversations, he complained to me (after he was "saved") because he said I had never shared the gospel with him! This was after he had been going to a typical church for about a year or so. I tried to explain to him that I had shared the gospel MANY times with him, but he wouldn't believe me because I never sat down and said, "You are going to hell. Jesus died to pay the price for your sin. He rose again to give you life. Believe it and you will go to heaven when you die."
I think I sense a box!
I see the problem being a humanistic view of Salvation. Too many of us view it as a work of man rather than of God. It is a work of God that changes the works of a man. We also can't allow the church to place itself between us and God. The church isn't God but just a lot of sinners who need Him. I've seen a lot of church battles and have been caught in a couple and I'm through trying to straighten the church out...only Jesus can do that. I've decided to let Him and just pray. However, you have identified a true problem plaguing the chruch.
You and Heather make a very handsome couple.:0)
Pam
I stumbled across your blog on my search for something else and I have found my self fascinated by your writing.
I am currently working toward the nerve to finally declare to my family and friends that I am not any less of a Christian because I don't go to church anymore. I feel so guilty b/c I am expected to be there each Sunday, yet, my rose colored glasses have come off and I feel so out of place inside the church. I spent 15 years of my life giving faithfully (time, money, support) to a church that turned out to be a big disappointment. I could go on forever about it b/c it is still so fresh in my heart even though it happened 3 years ago. Anyway, I walked away from the situation believing that 90% of the people who go to church are hypocrites and the 10% that you think are genuine, those are the ones who will turn and stab you in the back. I just wish for peace in my decision to take a break from organized religion and focusing instead on my relationship with Christ.
I apologize for using your comment section as a venting space. I originally set out to simply thank you for sharing your writing. I haven't had the chance to peruse all of your posts - I look forward to it though!
"It is a work of God that changes the works of a man. We also can't allow the church to place itself between us and God." Well said Pam.
Many , including myself, can attest to a spiritual experience that changed the whole direction of their life. We see this teaching in John 3:3 and it inspires the "born again" theology. I have come to dislike those who lean heavily on this teaching because they tend to lead an all-to-liberal lifestyle.
In John 3:3, "born again" can also be translated "born from above". What the whole teaching really means (to me) is that you have been translated or adopted into a new kingdom. A kingdom that has godliness as it's one and only goal. A kingdom that is motivated by love. A kingdom that cares for one another.
What I have seen by the majority of those who preach the "just believe and be saved" doctrine is pitifully less than what I see in the life of Christ. I was one of them for a while and so I know of their ways.
You are addressing one of the key problems in the faith here, Jason. I hope for a good discussion.
Farah... I quit church too and I know your pain. Draw strength from our Lord and do a lot of research on the internet as there are a lot of people who have found a way to live out their faith despite the failings of our churches. May God bless you and yours.
Ken,
It is really so hard sometimes to explain our experience of Christ and we fall to adopting relgio-babel to do so. We look for sure words of exspressing a like experience but the problem is people who don't have the experience but want to belong adopt our language. I think we who are serious about our faith and genuine in our experience of Christ must have the courage to use our own words to express in honesty that change that Christ only can bring to the life of a sinner. As for the hypocrites, well, Jesus love them through me.:0)He is the head and the church is only His body, a body that is often sick with sin and not functioning as it should.
Pam
brotherken said:In John 3:3, "born again" can also be translated "born from above". What the whole teaching really means (to me) is that you have been translated or adopted into a new kingdom. A kingdom that has godliness as it's one and only goal. A kingdom that is motivated by love. A kingdom that cares for one another.<
That is exactly right. 1 John speaks of being "born of God." I just pre-read and critiqued a book of guy that is about to publish. He stated that Christians should adopt the label of "Born again." I took strong issue with that!
It's not a label, but a description of what God does when He takes us from the kingdom of darkness and places us in His kingdom. We become born of Him ie. His child.
Pam, thanks for the input although I do think it is sometimes necessary to address things as I see them. This time it may have been more for my own need and I do apologize. I love the way you express your ideas and you have a maturity that I desire. I do hope that what I said does not sidetrack what Jason was addressing.
gone fishing, if we are "born of God" are we able to be complacent and proud? I don't think you think that, just trying to get things back in the direction that I think Jason wanted it to go.
"I think I sense a box!" (Gone Fishing)
That's part of what I am trying to expose by writing posts like this - and that line you mentioned is very key 'can God exist in a box'?
Pam, thanks for the comments and all your sharing that you have done - I must say I truly appreciate it - you have been carrying the convo and I thank you. For the record, my wife's name is Stacy - not Heather. Odd that you would think Heather and I are married - although we do have a lot of similar ideas.
Farah, where do I start on the church thing - wow! I have been out of a church for sometime now - so I know exactly where you are now in your faith experience. Just like to say - keep on in the faith and start to re-define it around you also (of the which you will be shunned for - it sucks but it shows their character). I for one, support you and I do hope that you get into the conversations on here - it's just a good way to let it all out - all that stuff you have to hold because you have no place to discuss - here you can freely discuss it all (and we won't hold it against you nor judge you). Just want to say - I support you and I know it can be tough - but you can't lose your faith (only re-shape it).
This is a deep issue I think and for me the true point of this all is simple - what do you really believe/live out concerning your faith? Who are you? - this is a question I have never heard in church in the 7 years I attended.
SocietyVS,
You have a great dislike for hypocrisy and shallowness. They two are certainly related, and I am with you in detesting them both.
You seem to equate simplicity with shallowness. Perhaps I have misread you? The call of the gospel is very simple, and even those who become like children can understand it.
But just because something is simple doesn't mean it is easy. Just because I may treat my neighbor simply in the way I want to be treated, it doesn't follow that it is easy for me to do, if you catch my meaning.
I agree with you that we don't emphasize the example of Christ, only his gift of salvation. I think that's an artifact of the reformation, although it did rightly insist that the gift of Christ should come before following Him.
A question for brotherken and farah:
Is there anything amiss with giving up on the Church while expecting Christ to not give up on us?
This is an amazing comment section! I don't think Christ has given up on me at all - I know He specifically placed this blog in my life.
I believe that we need the support of a Christian family and a lot of people find that in the church. I know for me, at this point in my life, I can't find that comfort at church. I have found more peace reading this comment section than I have in a long time.
I don't know that I have given up on finding a church home forever. I think I am just skeptical right now about denominations and the institution of organized religion. For example, I am a member of the PCA church. However, I joined that church because that is where my parents attended. My grandmother is Methodist. I live in the Baptist Bible Belt. My question is this - what difference do the differences in denominations make?
I am rambling. For someone who has been in the church for so long, I feel like a fairly immature Christian. I am sure that I need to do a lot more research and soul-searching. This conversation has convicted me to define what I believe and re-commit to working on my relationship with Christ. I just don't think going to church fits in to my life and my heart right now.
Thank you so much for everyone who has taken the time to respond. I don't think you know how much it means to me.
The_Burning_Bush - I probably shouldn't give up on the church but until I return, I know Christ will never give up me - He hasn't even though I have given Him plenty of reasons to. Thank you for questioning me and giving me something to think about.
"You seem to equate simplicity with shallowness. Perhaps I have misread you?" (BB)
I would say the 2 hang out with each other.
"The call of the gospel is very simple, and even those who become like children can understand it." (BB)
Interesting point - here's my rebuttal. The ethics of the gospel are very simple to enact - but getting to the core of what those ethics are is not so simple. We are looking at scriptures from Jewish writers based on a Jewish history - this is no easy task a child could figure out (if most adults struggle with it). We are dealing with ideas that are being watered down on top of that - making this issue way deeper than most want to wade.
That being said, we are to be children - but not nieve one's - 'wise as serpents' 'wisdom is justified by her children' (actually the idea of wisdom is used quite a bit by Jesus). Just because we can make an easy formula for the 'gospel' doesn't mean getting to the dpeth of this faith won't require us being involved mentally, physically, and emotionally.
"although it did rightly insist that the gift of Christ should come before following Him." (BB)
Huh? If Christ is like opening a present than this is accurate (the present has to be there first to be opened). I am not sure we can pin-point the process all that well - even Jesus mentions conversion is like the wind - it blows when and where it will. I actually know a few people that went to church for a while before they caught on to what it all meant.
Ooops, sorry, stacy...Ken, I wasn't correcting you and watch out!with maturity comes a lot of aches and pains!
Pam
Farah,
I'm just an old lady that can't shut-up, I think...but the church is right here where we are gathered in the Name of Jesus, seeking to understand His ways and the calling He has placed upon each of our lives. You will probably find that you truly can't leave the church even if you never return to a Christian religeous institution and even if you do. We need each other and seem to always seek each other out.
Pam
Ahh, again Pam says it nicely. We can never really leave the church! The church of our Lord is those who gather in His name and that is what I have had to do in other places (than a building), so no, I have never given up on church. I have just refused to commune with organizations lead by men who tolerate hypocrisy and preach false doctrine. I have had to remove an obstacle to my spiritual growth. Actually, and this is for Farah, I would not encourage others to quit church until they have seriously tried to reconcile their differences with the leadership as only then will they know that there was no other way.
As far as the simplicity of the gospel goes, I think the gospel itself is pretty simple but most people have a hard time with accepting the gift because it means to give your life over to Jesus. Most people are at rock bottom before they make the decision, it is not easy to do. Then what happens? In most cases they get involved in a religious system that slowly but surely quells the desire to live a life for Christ.
There is a lot to be said on this, keep the convo going!
Jason, I would also like to add that I do not believe that the Christian faith is ours to shape to fit our lives or our customs. I don't know if that is what you were going for, but thought it had to be said. The church should be all about Christs' teachings and exampling His life of service.
Farah, I see the denominations as a power struggle. In my struggle to find a church I tried various churches and each one had basically the same teaching on the gospel. I am thinking a better system would preach only that which we can know for sure and let the people work out the rest, with some guidance. Somehow the people must be challenged to dig into the scriptures for themselves and figure out why they are on this planet. Going to church and plopping money in the plate is just not doing any good. I know there is a bit more to it than that in many churches, but not much.
Lots of great feedback here. I think the problem with church organizations is that they forget about thanksgiving, and give in to pride. In a true conversion to Christ, He is intimately involved. I know that from my own experience. Who can forget what a wonderful thing it is to be chosen by God, to have been touched by the eternal, uncreated Creator? If a person forgets this and is not thankful for it, could it ever have been real in the first place?
That is why we must "believe in our hearts and confess with our mouths that Jesus Christ is Lord". If we can do that, we're real, we're saved. If we cannot, we're not real, we're not saved.
"Huh? If Christ is like opening a present than this is accurate (the present has to be there first to be opened). I am not sure we can pin-point the process all that well - even Jesus mentions conversion is like the wind - it blows when and where it will. I actually know a few people that went to church for a while before they caught on to what it all meant." SocietyVS
I apologize, Jason. I think my words may have been confusing.
The story you mentioned is right on. I think people can follow Christ for a while before they actually receive him, but the latter is infinitely more important. Here's what I mean:
Jesus says that there will come a day when many people will come up to him saying, 'Lord, didn't I follow you doing this miracle and saying this thing you said ...' And Jesus will say, 'Away from me! I never knew you!' The main thing is that if the Spirit is not in you, everything you do to follow Christ will leave you unable to escape condemnation (whoever does not have the Spirit is already condemned).
That's all I was saying. We must be saved on the inside before we start doing things on the outside. I think you will find it hard to disagree, no?
Pam: I am surprised! I never pictured you as old.
Jim: Excellent quote. The gospel is mysterious, but very simple.
@the_burning_bush
I agree that the gospel is simply laid out but it takes work and discipline to follow. I also understand completely that you have to internalize His teachings and prepare your heart before you have truly reached a true relationship with Christ.
My question to you: Do you believe we are predestined to have the Spirit within us or that we choose to receive Him? If our fates are already decided, wouldn't that mean that those who go before the Lord and are turned away even though they thought they had done everything right didn't have a chance anyway?
Wesley's goal in all his sermons was not to get people to go through steps 1-3, but rather, for their lives to be transformed and actually do something. I always liked that approach.
Burning Bush,
Well, ya know, it depends upon how creaky I'm feeling whether or not I picture myself as old! Most of the time I don't but I've got one of those nasty birthdays coming up. Isn't there some Biblical reason to ignore those???;-} Anyway, I read your profile and you are much younger than I expected also. I think that after a point, age is relative...
Ferah, I was reading the Gospel of John this morning and it has a lot to say about how we are drawn to salvation and Who/who chooses what and when.:-)
Pam
This convo is drawing peolple out of the wood-works - wowsers - good to see y'all!
"That is why we must "believe in our hearts and confess with our mouths that Jesus Christ is Lord". If we can do that, we're real, we're saved. If we cannot, we're not real, we're not saved." (Jim)
I guess I agree - I mean you took the words right out of Paul's mouth there lol. But what is essential is in vs. 17 'faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ'. I think Paul notes the difference maker in this whole thing - not just the 'hearing' part - but the 'doing' part (ie: the word of Christ). I think Paul gets read a lot like 'just believe and say and all is well' - we all know this is a load of dung. Even I think Paul is deeper than that - I think being in this 'faith' requires action - that's being like Christ (or like his words).
"The main thing is that if the Spirit is not in you, everything you do to follow Christ will leave you unable to escape condemnation (whoever does not have the Spirit is already condemned)." (BB)
I think it is an internalization process - of this we can be sure - so I agree. But when you start bringing the spirit into this discussion - just what do you mean by using that term 'spirit in us'? See this is the tricky thing about using those terms - just what is the depth we are reaching for by talking about them? I think this is where we all need to start looking at - or else we are just throwing around some 'catch phrases'. I am not saying I disagree - I think the loaf of bread is there - we just need to figure out what the ingredients are.
As for the mysterious 'Lord Lord - I never knew you' passage - that one to me is very easy to figure out - within it's context in the gospels (on how and where it's used). From Matt 7:15-29 we see the whole picture - and it's right at the end of the great sermon (all about teachings). We have the tree's and fruit parable prior, and we have the foundations parable after all culminating in vs. 23 'Depart from me, you who practice LAWLESSNESS'. The idea seems to be the people who were mindful of the faith in word - were not mindful of the faith in deed/action - they were doing things Jesus taught nothing about or for (so how could he know them?).
"Do you believe we are predestined to have the Spirit within us or that we choose to receive Him?" (Farah)
It's a good question Farah but is also a question on person can truly answer with any bit of credibility. Predestination is not something we know anything about - nor have any history with (living in the present tense only). But we do know a lot about 'choice'. Actually I think right from Adam/Eve to John's revelation - that the gospel is all about choices we make. My personal opinion on the gospel right now is - I don't think it is about accepting Jesus as much as it is about accepting Jesus' teachings and following them (or living in them). But that's a whole nother debate of sorts.
**For the record, my wife's name is Stacy - not Heather. Odd that you would think Heather and I are married - although we do have a lot of similar ideas. **
Wow. Step away for a day, and I miss my own marriage. :)
I believe that salvation and repentence are an ongoing journey. And I don't find it a simple process at all. Some things that we need help in overcoming are deeply embedded in our soul/psyche/call it what you will. I also don't see salvation as something that you don't have one minute, and then have the next. Rather, it's a process of realization.
**I don't think it is about accepting Jesus as much as it is about accepting Jesus' teachings and following them (or living in them). **
In the Gospels, Jesus doesn't call for people to worship him. He calls for them to follow.
Thank you Pam and Burning_Bush - I am going to look into the Scriptures you have referenced. Regarding the Spirit, I basically use the Trinity interchangeably but in my simplistic mind, when talking about the movement in my heart and soul, I use the term Spirit b/c my visual of Jesus is in body form. Probably doesn't make any sense.
Thank you again for your replies.
Good to have you by Farah - you are welcome to come and participate anytime you choose to - we always welcome another voice.
Pam,
Hilarious! I wonder what verse you are refering to. If I may paraphrase Kierkegaard, the woman of faith preserves an eternal youth. That's basically how I see you.
"Do you believe we are predestined to have the Spirit within us or that we choose to receive Him? If our fates are already decided, wouldn't that mean that those who go before the Lord and are turned away even though they thought they had done everything right didn't have a chance anyway?"
Wow! A lot going on there. It's definitely a speculative question, so I'll tell you a bit about the major camps and then tell you my belief.
The first camp is the determinism camp. Determinism says that there is one and only one way the world, including all our choices, could turn out. God predestines and it turns out that way. He couldn't have done anything differently, we couldn't have done anything differently. Calvin, Luther, and Plantinga fall into this category. A lot of classical writers also fit in this category too like Homer, Sophocles, etc.
The second camp is compatiblism, which basically says determinism is true, but we also have free will. Basically this view says it could only happen one way, we all just "freely" choose it. C.S. Lewis and Augustine were probably compatiblists.
The third camp is libertarianism, which says people are free to choose and there are many different ways the world (and our choices) could have turned out. Sartre, Kierkegaard, Dostoyevski, and Nietchze are in this camp. In modern times William Lane Craig has defended it.
I am definitely in the last camp, mostly for the reasons Jason (societyVS) mentioned earlier: the Bible is all about choices from the very beginning. Also the Bible OFTEN talks about how things could have happened differently.
I also believe in predestination. That probably is confusing. Predestination is in the Bible (see the beginning of Ephesians), so if you believe the Bible you also have to accept predestination. The way I understand it, though, is that while God knows ahead of time who will freely choose Him, it doesn't follow that He is forcing anyone to make any choices in particular.
That's probably longer and more confusing than you were expecting, but I hope it helps shed some light on the usual positions and maybe what it is you believe as well.
I think the problem with church organizations is that they forget about thanksgiving, and give in to pride. (Jim Jordan)
Hey Jim! How about teaching what the New Testament says about giving? That all giving should be VOLUNTARY! If no one was EXPECTED to give they might truly have to decide for themselves if they can and will give to this organization. Some might express this as an excellent way to "learn to rely on the prompting of the spirit". The only way to do this in practice (not make the people feel obligated to give) is to NOT PASS A PLATE! I have yet to have any one in church leadership even come close to considering this, wonder why?
I really hate to go bezerk like that but that is just the way I feel about that :)
Love ya anyway :)
Burning Bush, you've made me blush!
Something my grandmother taught me, "Beware of 'isms' for they trap you within the thoughts of other men." So...my ideosyncrascity is my grandma's fault! Not really, I'm thankful that she taught me to question and think for myself. God puts up with my questions too. There really is no contradiction between free-will and predestination, the Bible teaches both together. God is quite capable of creating such a complex system of things and remaining fully in control while holding us responsible for our choices.
Pam
Hi SocietyVS,
It sounds like you are concerned that if the gospel is first taken inward that one is destined to neglect fulfilling their outward commiments.
My response, like James', is to say that if a person is not obeying God outwardly the problem is inside, that his faith is dead. Everything else is a symptom.
Hypocrisy is a concern I share with you. As you say, obedience should not be talk, but action. And this action should first be on the inside.
This is why, I believe, James says, "Purify your hearts, you double-minded!" The solution is inward. People need to have Jesus inside before they can authentically follow him.
I don't mean to answer for Jason, but I hope you don't mind a quick comment. I agree with the importance of the spiritual side of the faith, but I don't see it as necessarily step one. You may not be meaning to say that BB, but I have heard "spiritual" Christians put it that way. I am less worried for the one that is doing his best to do the will of God than the one that is all "spiritually connected" and yet does very little with it.
I'm a wee bit confused. I was agreeing with Jason's post. I had said I think the problem with church organizations is that they forget about thanksgiving, and give in to pride.
There can be a degree of pride in passing the plate that is NOT from God, brotherken. I don't know where you worship but my bible study has a basket by the door and the most successful local church [re:contributions] has various boxes for dropping donations. There is no plate passed around.
If the love of Christ moves you, you will act, and you may empty your pockets. But ,yes, it is voluntary, and if you give neither time nor money, you're fake.
Ahh! I read that wrong Jim! Sorry.
I thought you said "give in pride". You weren't even talking about the donations.
Again, sorry about that.
Misread? I've done it a million times. Don't worry. Thanks for that.
Post a Comment